Agree with all this and would add... For the project 2025 group it's also about white women having white children. If the issue was really falling birth rates impacting the work force and then we would be opening pathways to legal immigration. Those in power are not doing that because they only want more white children and workers. Misogyny is never far from racism in this country.
I am VERY familiar with the culture behind these ideas. It starts with a childhood of being told that a girls' place is in the kitchen and at chorus. My large conservative extended family is a case study in truncated opportunities and expectations for the (many) nieces and inflated expectations and abundant resources for the (few) nephews. I watched a 4.3 GPA student niece get told she has to go to a religious college; when she refused she was sent to the local community college. My sibling didn't even try to get her student tuition assistance to go to the nearby University of California campus. I watched as my sister-in-law, a depressed stay-at-home mother who gave up her teaching career to have abundant babies as commanded by her husband, the family leader (as she often told me) intentionally drove her mini-van into the side of a mountain nearly depriving her girls of a mother.
I fervently wish every day for rebellion in my extended family. I want to see these traditional families blown apart so these young girls (11 of them) can have a chance to breathe air and live. I work surreptitiously to feed the tiny flames. Burn, my lovelies, BURN.
Not shocked : White men sold their kids in slavery. Would separate their kids from their mothers. Would have 2 homes and only provided for legitimate kids. Would marry immediately after a wife died from trying to give birth to one of his kids. Not to mention child abandonment- going out for milk and never coming back. Not to mention spousal rape and domestic violence.
Yea I could believe the education of their daughters would not be a priority and the happiness of a spouse would be irrelevant.
A few weeks ago my husband told me about a shirt he saw on a woman. He couldn't make out exactly what it said, but he believed the first letter of each word spelled out "RAGE" or something. He was incredulous that anyone would walk around with a t-shirt like that, in public. HAVE YOU NOT BEEN PAYING ATTENTION, MY DUDE? WTF? We ARE outraged and a whole hell of a lot of us are done being quiet about it.
Amazing what some of these guys will plan to do instead of either becoming the kind of men that appeal to women as partners, or making peace with being a single man for the long term.
Sure, it's the good life for the men who get to eat the dinner and then watch football while the women clean up the feast that they've spent hours slaving to prepare... 🙄
Also, I try to always refer to Vance and co as ‘the wife-beater lobby.’ Give them no courtesy. They want men to run things, so make them defend what men do when men run things.
FWIW, I think this idea that marriage always makes women conservative will not last. Women have had 5 decades of independence; that doesn’t vanish easily. We have voices now and can fight back. Further, I think that more of us married women are speaking up about how unfair straight marriage is even when our husbands are decent! It’s going to be a very long and painful fight, but I think we can win it.
Every response after your post is text book gaslighting. Please don’t buy it. You had it right. We’re 5 decades in various levels of freedom and we’re not going back.
The thing about having a “decent husband” - it’s subject to his whim and if he decides one day that he doesn’t want to be “decent” do you have other options?
Women in straight marriages end up doing a ton of unrecognized shit work because ‘that’s just nature.’ Her job is usually considered less important. He can justify his hobbies but never hers. She’s just naturally better at managing car pools and pediatrician visits. That kind of thing. Lyz’s book ‘This American Ex Wife’ explains this much better than I could.
It's not always that way, Karen. I'd argue that there is room for negotiation about roles in any marriage. Some roles people naturally fall into and it's acceptable. Others require more dialogue. Material realities DO count. Men can't breast feed (as far as I know), and that makes a huge difference in who does what in the early years of a chid's life.
I take issue with the notion of "unrecognized shit work", though. Routine life and child caring tasks become problematic when one feels resentment about doing more than one's share. Resentment is a pretty good clue that you either need to renegotiate responsibilities or reframe your own perspective. Seeing something as "shit work" is a perspective that is open to choice and change. One doesn't have to choose to see the work itself as pleasant, but one's ability to do it without extra negative feelings can be a source of positive self-regard.
It may not always be so but it is common enough that anlmost every woman I know, young and old, has experienced this inequitable distribution of work in the home. Breast feeding is done for a relatively short period of time in a child’s life, and milk can be expressed and frozen. It is understandable that people who are advantaged by this system think it’s just a matter of attitude and negotiation but nearly every woman will tell you different. I raised two boys and enjoyed their childhood very much but I will tell you that no amount of discussion and negotiation could ever get their dad to do more than 10% and we both worked for all but a 3 year period. We divorced and my work load went down
I don't doubt that there is almost always an inequitable distribution of work in the home - or that women are on the "more work" side of that distribution.
The issue for me is how one feels about the "more work." If the feeling is that it is unfair, then something should change - it can be the actual distribution of work, it can be more appreciation for and thanks for your outsized contribution, or it can be you accepting that will not change and it either is or is not worth it.
The fact that you couldn't get your husband to do more than 10% of the work - well, of course your workload went down after you divorced.
Despite being male, I do almost all the laundry, shopping and cooking in our house - and did before we had kids and now that they are out of the house. Sometimes I get resentful that my wife seems to take this all for granted. When I feel that way, I either ask her to help (which she will do) or I try to choose to "see the job, do the job and forget the misery." Or I stop for a while (leave the laundry, eat leftovers or go out, don't shop) and do something for myself. In the flow of my life, I try to avoid resentment and anger. Maybe more than I should, but it's worked so far.
I think you’re in the position of most women. The problem is that most men, who benefit from having someone do all the shit work, get very angry at being asked to take up a fair percentage of the necessary load.
Well said! Although it affects a much smaller segment of the population, the same "concern" shows up in the anti-trans hysteria. They want to "empower parents" by taking away their ability to decide what's best for their child, "protect" children by outlawing health care shown to improve mental health and reduce teen suicide, and force them, just as they force women to have babies, to develop bodies that don't match their genders, all to make sure the comfortable (for them) "way it's always been" can be preserved. They have only one song in their repertoire, and it doesn't sound any better no matter how many times they play it.
Erica, ( and I hope you are not in Florida!) it appears this trans topic is important to you. I too find it so…complex. So I challenge you to join me to dig deeper. If you propose that opposite sex hormone treatment does no harm, especially to developing children, investigate further. I’ve discovered a bodily price is paid internally ( where you can’t see) over time.
Some adults are willing to pay the price, but shouldn’t there be full disclosure to counter Big Pharma’s “just take a pill for the rest of your life”and 🤫unspoken: when something goes wrong, we got pills for that too? The counter argument folks have no monetary motivation. (Follow the Money)
Please, there IS thoughtful discussion happening that does not come from “hysteria”. (or hate)
I recommend “Gender: A Wider Lens” on YouTube.
And “On the Meaning of Sex, thoughts about the new definition of Woman” by Kajsa Ekman.
Study after study after study have shown the life enhancing and life saving effects of gender affirming care for trans kids and teens. It is why the American Academy of Pediatrics fully endorses it.
Big Pharma--and big insurance--are doing their utmost to *deny* providing affirming care for any trans person of any age.
Going through the wrong puberty can be extremely traumatizing for a teen, causing, among other things, dissociation, depersonalization, depression. Choosing to do nothing to intervene is not the safe choice.
Please be assured that health care providers go through a very thorough assessment before diagnosing and treating gender dysphoria.
“When the Founders spoke of ‘pursuit of Happiness,’ what they meant might be understood today as in essence ‘pursuit of Blessedness.’ That is, an individual must be free to live as his Creator ordained — to flourish. Our Constitution grants each of us the liberty to do not what we want, but what we ought. This pursuit of the good life is found primarily in family — marriage, children, Thanksgiving dinners, and the like. pursuit of the good life is found primarily in family — marriage, children, Thanksgiving dinners, and the like.”
There is so much presumption, ignorance, and falsehood in this quote, I don't know where to start. Can we please stop using the Constitution as the moral guiding light for the nation? It is a framework for democracy, not an unimpeachable snapshot of American perfection. It is as flawed and unreliable on a moral level as the Bible (also constantly revised and interpreted by white men).
I love the hypocrisy in P2025 trying to get into the Framers heads about pursuit of happiness and it really meaning procreation. Yet when it comes to guns, it's simply the words. But no Framer could imagine a weapon that shoots multiple bullets a second when in their time, only a few good musketeers could do 2-4 per minute.
This is a risky statement to make, but… I *do* think it is a problem that fathers abandon their jobs (as fathers) with no consequences. If men had to consider adjusting their career expectations to fit a school schedule, or what it would mean for their children if their SNAP benefits were cut— we’d be looking at a very different discussion.
As I listen to Joe Scarborough extoll the virtues of his term in congress, and I think about the restrictions he and his colleagues placed in the work with Bill Clinton with their "welfare to work" plan - this has been enacted in public policy pretty much non-stop. If Harris gets elected, I think it would be important to put in place a commission to examine where policies that restrict the ability of women to live on their own, whether with children or without, with a partner or without and ERADICATE the barriers. I think I will be writing a letter to my governor today because maybe we can put this to work in Oregon for a start.
I set a pic of a bear statue as my phone wallpaper so that whenever I'm tempted to pick it up and start chatting with some guy, I remember that there's a safer option
When the Trump/Vance 2025 Taliban Group are in office, we will see education for women curtailed. There is no need to educate women if they are going to be at home raising children. This will help men as they will not have to compete for higher education slots; the number of "qualified" men for a position will be an advantage to white men of average intelligence; and their salaries should be higher as the pool of possible hires will be dramatically reduced. Insurance costs will be reduced as women will not need specialty care for IVF, "women's issues", or emergency care associated with those "women's issues". Men will also be able to have more than one wife as one may die in childbirth and someone has to raise all those kids they will have. YUP. Win-Win for white men,
As a former Texan, one of the things that concerned me most was the possibility of losing my access to financial services if things keep going the way they're trending there. I remember my mother marching me to our local savings and loan (remember those?) when I was 5 or so, right after women got the right to have bank accounts in their own name. She got us each our own accounts and passbooks and took me to lunch to celebrate.
Yes, I do remember those! My grandmother took me to the bank and opened up an account for me with $5. Yes, with a passbook. No celebratory lunch, though.
25 is the key! If we can get women to delay/avoid motherhood until 25 years of age. Usually they see the writing on the wall and can make educated choices.
Men pit young women against older women. They tell young women how special they are and how the older women have “hit the wall” or they’re bitter or have a high body count.
Young women falling for this trap shouldn’t be shamed or ridiculed and sadly when they find out and it’s too late we need to find a way to help them.
If I could wave a magic wand, there would be no marriages or kids born for 2 years straight. I think 2 years is long enough to freak out the patriarchy, wedding industry, medical industry, childcare industry, school systems. Either they’ll finally start listening to women or we’re full blown handmaidens’s tale.
Agree with all this and would add... For the project 2025 group it's also about white women having white children. If the issue was really falling birth rates impacting the work force and then we would be opening pathways to legal immigration. Those in power are not doing that because they only want more white children and workers. Misogyny is never far from racism in this country.
I did write about this in June in a seperate email that talked about the eugenics behind pronatalism https://lyz.substack.com/p/outbreeding-the-liberals
💯💯💯
I am VERY familiar with the culture behind these ideas. It starts with a childhood of being told that a girls' place is in the kitchen and at chorus. My large conservative extended family is a case study in truncated opportunities and expectations for the (many) nieces and inflated expectations and abundant resources for the (few) nephews. I watched a 4.3 GPA student niece get told she has to go to a religious college; when she refused she was sent to the local community college. My sibling didn't even try to get her student tuition assistance to go to the nearby University of California campus. I watched as my sister-in-law, a depressed stay-at-home mother who gave up her teaching career to have abundant babies as commanded by her husband, the family leader (as she often told me) intentionally drove her mini-van into the side of a mountain nearly depriving her girls of a mother.
I fervently wish every day for rebellion in my extended family. I want to see these traditional families blown apart so these young girls (11 of them) can have a chance to breathe air and live. I work surreptitiously to feed the tiny flames. Burn, my lovelies, BURN.
Not shocked : White men sold their kids in slavery. Would separate their kids from their mothers. Would have 2 homes and only provided for legitimate kids. Would marry immediately after a wife died from trying to give birth to one of his kids. Not to mention child abandonment- going out for milk and never coming back. Not to mention spousal rape and domestic violence.
Yea I could believe the education of their daughters would not be a priority and the happiness of a spouse would be irrelevant.
A few weeks ago my husband told me about a shirt he saw on a woman. He couldn't make out exactly what it said, but he believed the first letter of each word spelled out "RAGE" or something. He was incredulous that anyone would walk around with a t-shirt like that, in public. HAVE YOU NOT BEEN PAYING ATTENTION, MY DUDE? WTF? We ARE outraged and a whole hell of a lot of us are done being quiet about it.
Amazing what some of these guys will plan to do instead of either becoming the kind of men that appeal to women as partners, or making peace with being a single man for the long term.
This! Given a choice between trashing civilization and taking regular showers, a significant number of men choose the first option.
🤣🤣 Man chooses to impose forced marriage and birth instead of going to therapy and taking regular showers. So dramatic.
Also, any ideology that promotes Thanksgiving dinners as "the good life" sounds lame as hell.
Sure, it's the good life for the men who get to eat the dinner and then watch football while the women clean up the feast that they've spent hours slaving to prepare... 🙄
"I made this supervillain plan for turkey and dressing"
I have never, ever seen the appeal of T-day. Anymore, I don’t even try to take it off of work.
The war is to end patriarchy, and it’s not going to be easy.
Also, I try to always refer to Vance and co as ‘the wife-beater lobby.’ Give them no courtesy. They want men to run things, so make them defend what men do when men run things.
Why they want to force women to marry and have kids: https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2024/10/trump-versus-taylor
FWIW, I think this idea that marriage always makes women conservative will not last. Women have had 5 decades of independence; that doesn’t vanish easily. We have voices now and can fight back. Further, I think that more of us married women are speaking up about how unfair straight marriage is even when our husbands are decent! It’s going to be a very long and painful fight, but I think we can win it.
Every response after your post is text book gaslighting. Please don’t buy it. You had it right. We’re 5 decades in various levels of freedom and we’re not going back.
The thing about having a “decent husband” - it’s subject to his whim and if he decides one day that he doesn’t want to be “decent” do you have other options?
Karen, help me understand. What's "unfair" about straight marriage "even when our husbands are decent"?
Women in straight marriages end up doing a ton of unrecognized shit work because ‘that’s just nature.’ Her job is usually considered less important. He can justify his hobbies but never hers. She’s just naturally better at managing car pools and pediatrician visits. That kind of thing. Lyz’s book ‘This American Ex Wife’ explains this much better than I could.
It's not always that way, Karen. I'd argue that there is room for negotiation about roles in any marriage. Some roles people naturally fall into and it's acceptable. Others require more dialogue. Material realities DO count. Men can't breast feed (as far as I know), and that makes a huge difference in who does what in the early years of a chid's life.
I take issue with the notion of "unrecognized shit work", though. Routine life and child caring tasks become problematic when one feels resentment about doing more than one's share. Resentment is a pretty good clue that you either need to renegotiate responsibilities or reframe your own perspective. Seeing something as "shit work" is a perspective that is open to choice and change. One doesn't have to choose to see the work itself as pleasant, but one's ability to do it without extra negative feelings can be a source of positive self-regard.
It may not always be so but it is common enough that anlmost every woman I know, young and old, has experienced this inequitable distribution of work in the home. Breast feeding is done for a relatively short period of time in a child’s life, and milk can be expressed and frozen. It is understandable that people who are advantaged by this system think it’s just a matter of attitude and negotiation but nearly every woman will tell you different. I raised two boys and enjoyed their childhood very much but I will tell you that no amount of discussion and negotiation could ever get their dad to do more than 10% and we both worked for all but a 3 year period. We divorced and my work load went down
I don't doubt that there is almost always an inequitable distribution of work in the home - or that women are on the "more work" side of that distribution.
The issue for me is how one feels about the "more work." If the feeling is that it is unfair, then something should change - it can be the actual distribution of work, it can be more appreciation for and thanks for your outsized contribution, or it can be you accepting that will not change and it either is or is not worth it.
The fact that you couldn't get your husband to do more than 10% of the work - well, of course your workload went down after you divorced.
This is a thought-provoking response. I will need a little time to answer.
Despite being male, I do almost all the laundry, shopping and cooking in our house - and did before we had kids and now that they are out of the house. Sometimes I get resentful that my wife seems to take this all for granted. When I feel that way, I either ask her to help (which she will do) or I try to choose to "see the job, do the job and forget the misery." Or I stop for a while (leave the laundry, eat leftovers or go out, don't shop) and do something for myself. In the flow of my life, I try to avoid resentment and anger. Maybe more than I should, but it's worked so far.
I think you’re in the position of most women. The problem is that most men, who benefit from having someone do all the shit work, get very angry at being asked to take up a fair percentage of the necessary load.
Well said! Although it affects a much smaller segment of the population, the same "concern" shows up in the anti-trans hysteria. They want to "empower parents" by taking away their ability to decide what's best for their child, "protect" children by outlawing health care shown to improve mental health and reduce teen suicide, and force them, just as they force women to have babies, to develop bodies that don't match their genders, all to make sure the comfortable (for them) "way it's always been" can be preserved. They have only one song in their repertoire, and it doesn't sound any better no matter how many times they play it.
Erica, ( and I hope you are not in Florida!) it appears this trans topic is important to you. I too find it so…complex. So I challenge you to join me to dig deeper. If you propose that opposite sex hormone treatment does no harm, especially to developing children, investigate further. I’ve discovered a bodily price is paid internally ( where you can’t see) over time.
Some adults are willing to pay the price, but shouldn’t there be full disclosure to counter Big Pharma’s “just take a pill for the rest of your life”and 🤫unspoken: when something goes wrong, we got pills for that too? The counter argument folks have no monetary motivation. (Follow the Money)
Please, there IS thoughtful discussion happening that does not come from “hysteria”. (or hate)
I recommend “Gender: A Wider Lens” on YouTube.
And “On the Meaning of Sex, thoughts about the new definition of Woman” by Kajsa Ekman.
Hi!,Trans woman here.
A few things:
Study after study after study have shown the life enhancing and life saving effects of gender affirming care for trans kids and teens. It is why the American Academy of Pediatrics fully endorses it.
Big Pharma--and big insurance--are doing their utmost to *deny* providing affirming care for any trans person of any age.
Going through the wrong puberty can be extremely traumatizing for a teen, causing, among other things, dissociation, depersonalization, depression. Choosing to do nothing to intervene is not the safe choice.
Please be assured that health care providers go through a very thorough assessment before diagnosing and treating gender dysphoria.
What now?
“When the Founders spoke of ‘pursuit of Happiness,’ what they meant might be understood today as in essence ‘pursuit of Blessedness.’ That is, an individual must be free to live as his Creator ordained — to flourish. Our Constitution grants each of us the liberty to do not what we want, but what we ought. This pursuit of the good life is found primarily in family — marriage, children, Thanksgiving dinners, and the like. pursuit of the good life is found primarily in family — marriage, children, Thanksgiving dinners, and the like.”
There is so much presumption, ignorance, and falsehood in this quote, I don't know where to start. Can we please stop using the Constitution as the moral guiding light for the nation? It is a framework for democracy, not an unimpeachable snapshot of American perfection. It is as flawed and unreliable on a moral level as the Bible (also constantly revised and interpreted by white men).
Oh, man. ALL THIS.
I love the hypocrisy in P2025 trying to get into the Framers heads about pursuit of happiness and it really meaning procreation. Yet when it comes to guns, it's simply the words. But no Framer could imagine a weapon that shoots multiple bullets a second when in their time, only a few good musketeers could do 2-4 per minute.
I've never seen "Framer" instead of "Founder" but I like it so much better, thank you for sharing that new (to me) terminology!
This is a risky statement to make, but… I *do* think it is a problem that fathers abandon their jobs (as fathers) with no consequences. If men had to consider adjusting their career expectations to fit a school schedule, or what it would mean for their children if their SNAP benefits were cut— we’d be looking at a very different discussion.
As I listen to Joe Scarborough extoll the virtues of his term in congress, and I think about the restrictions he and his colleagues placed in the work with Bill Clinton with their "welfare to work" plan - this has been enacted in public policy pretty much non-stop. If Harris gets elected, I think it would be important to put in place a commission to examine where policies that restrict the ability of women to live on their own, whether with children or without, with a partner or without and ERADICATE the barriers. I think I will be writing a letter to my governor today because maybe we can put this to work in Oregon for a start.
More reasons why women choose the bear.
I set a pic of a bear statue as my phone wallpaper so that whenever I'm tempted to pick it up and start chatting with some guy, I remember that there's a safer option
When the Trump/Vance 2025 Taliban Group are in office, we will see education for women curtailed. There is no need to educate women if they are going to be at home raising children. This will help men as they will not have to compete for higher education slots; the number of "qualified" men for a position will be an advantage to white men of average intelligence; and their salaries should be higher as the pool of possible hires will be dramatically reduced. Insurance costs will be reduced as women will not need specialty care for IVF, "women's issues", or emergency care associated with those "women's issues". Men will also be able to have more than one wife as one may die in childbirth and someone has to raise all those kids they will have. YUP. Win-Win for white men,
Under Project 2025, women WILL be denied the right to vote. It will only be a matter of time.
As a former Texan, one of the things that concerned me most was the possibility of losing my access to financial services if things keep going the way they're trending there. I remember my mother marching me to our local savings and loan (remember those?) when I was 5 or so, right after women got the right to have bank accounts in their own name. She got us each our own accounts and passbooks and took me to lunch to celebrate.
Yes, I do remember those! My grandmother took me to the bank and opened up an account for me with $5. Yes, with a passbook. No celebratory lunch, though.
It’s good to know you are out of Texas.
25 is the key! If we can get women to delay/avoid motherhood until 25 years of age. Usually they see the writing on the wall and can make educated choices.
Men pit young women against older women. They tell young women how special they are and how the older women have “hit the wall” or they’re bitter or have a high body count.
Young women falling for this trap shouldn’t be shamed or ridiculed and sadly when they find out and it’s too late we need to find a way to help them.
If I could wave a magic wand, there would be no marriages or kids born for 2 years straight. I think 2 years is long enough to freak out the patriarchy, wedding industry, medical industry, childcare industry, school systems. Either they’ll finally start listening to women or we’re full blown handmaidens’s tale.