I read this and thought about how the same dynamic is often carried over into the workforce. I read the first half of this quote: “ The amount of ego-stroking and making myself smaller I’ve had to do so…” my white male (self proclaimed liberal!) boss doesn't resent me…There’s really no where to rest except in our own homes where we are finally able keep everyone out.
WOW - once again you have reduced me to contemplation and I need to . . . help create the revolution. I have been in the work force since 1975 and I managed to have two wonderful children who have modeled my behaviors of entrepreneurship and love (not their father's) and I am starting over after divorce in Feb 1, 2024 from a marriage of 52 years. I add all this because I was fooled and hid under the bushel letting others think I WAS (as he said many times in front of his associates) an "affectionate footnote to his career". The third time he said it (I was running a statewide business program) on the way home I told him never to say that again. That was about the time his affairs and day trading started. I know I sound bitter, but I'm working hard to rebuild financially and emotionally.
This American Ex-Wife was the starting point to rebuild and today's post really resonates with me because I am learning in this last year that the people in my career-sphere see ME as the "Yoda" of small business assistance. In the last year, I've been called Yoda, GOAT, national treasure and the plant whisperer. I am embarrassed to say how I deferred to him, did all the household work, did all the child rearing work because he made 3 times what I did! But there in lies the problem - he never shared his wealth that could have afforded us cleaning service, heck at the amount he made when the kids were babes, we could have afforded a nanny -- but that is all gone - he blew it. So, he blew having a marriage, too!
As always, thank you Lyz for being such a gifted writer in this life mission of women for partnership! I realized about 6 months ago that partnership was what I never had. I had a selfish man child!
Linda, thanks for sharing a little bit of your story. I'm sorry that you had to be in that toxic a marriage for so long. I'm a fan of marriage and in a 43 year one myself, but I'm not a fan of abuse, and it sounds like you had a husband who didn't value you.
exactly - a a strong belief in the “bonds of marriage” and thinking setting a good role model would make a difference - it actually did as my kids are great and he was not active in their lives and the both moved out at college not to come back.
In the early 1970s, my mom did a Master's degree and studied 50 couples married 50 years or longer. 93 said they'd marry the same person again (in other words, 7 would not have). Some were second marriages! She embraced that "bonds of marriage" notion - and no doubt passed along behaviors consistent with traditional gender roles. But all of her kids, male and female, understood that being of service was better than being waited on. Good for you for setting such a strong example for your kids, and for having the courage to move on.
I read a bon mot on the internet just yesterday: a man who marries down gets a stay at home wife and mother, but a woman who marries down gets a stay at home gamer.
That red-pilled lawyer wouldn't've turned out that way, but honestly what a dope.
100%. I'm Gen X so older than people currently looking for their first marriage but all the way through my dating life, from "he's got to be out there somewhere" idealism through "you still have time!" encouragement and "well, maybe you're too intimidating" up to "not this again" and lasting spinsterhood, my primary question was and remains: *where are the good men??!!* You want me so much to get married and procreate, show me where to find men who have stable jobs, some education, and perspectives not stuck in the 1500s. Most men I met wanted *me* to support *them*. Several even went so far as to say that since men had supported women for centuries, it was their turn to have someone pay their way. And there were a few decades in there when I actively wanted to be a SAHM! You'd think men would have been into that! nope. At least I had the good sense not have have kids with any of them. Phew.
Yes, we do. I raised a son and daughter to be self-sufficient (in the 80s-90s) and they both have made great spouses (their spouses tell me). One is Gen X and one is Millennial. They each have a son and each wanted another but after miscarriages both stopped trying.
I'll be honest, it wasn't easy. I was mocked for having both kids learn to cook, do laundry by 10. Clean the entire house by 13 (at 14 they were paid) and when disparaging remarks were made about others, they were corrected and sometimes made to apologize. To see them both raising conscious citizens is wonderful.
When I say it wasn't easy, churches, acquaintances, schools and in-laws did not support me - it was suggested I stay home a raise my children which is CODE for do all the work.
I wasn't easy . . . Be strong, carry on, and I am now enjoying the love and compassion of my kids and their families.
My 5 year old daughter doesnt want kids. She asked me why people get married. idk how to answer that - financial incentives? I mean that really was why my partner and i got married - both in our second college degree process and financially it made sense to combine insurances. But...beyond that...
I keep thinking of that faux magazine that hard right anti birth control fascist Peter Theil is behind having the Ballerina farm lady on the cover- to convince women birth control is rat poison.
About 10 years ago, my daughter met a guy at a bar where people play board games. He invited her out to another bar to play Scrabble. She replied, "sure, so long as you don't mind losing." They went on the date, he lost and there were no future dates. She's very pregnant and happily married to a really great guy now - who doesn't validate himself by the money he makes.
MIC DROP!!! I love that she kicked his a** in scrabble! Yes! My kind of woman!!! My mother often kicks my father's butt...and he is a verbose dictionary reader with two degrees, and rather a renaissance man. She was his secretary. She does the NYT crossword in pen. ;)
LOL. Yeah, my daughter is really smart. She thought that little incident was funny. Like your dad, I'm degree and book smart and my wife kicks my ass at Scrabble, too.
My father always told me "A person's [private] life is their own business." Furthermore, whether other people like it or not, whether you get married or not, whether you are in relationship or not, when you decide to get close to someone or not is your own business. Let me put it another way: When my wife and I met, I was the full-time music director/organist of her church. A couple choir members knew I had been recently stood up on a blind date. Then they met someone at a social gathering, and found out that she was "single and looking." They told her about me. They got consent to give me her information. We had our first date in May of one year, were engaged 6 months later, and the following year we got married in September - we celebrate 25 years this year. At no time did anyone push us into marriage (we were in our early 30's and had established careers) - that was our own private decision. Bottom line: If someone tries to nose their way into your business, come up with some comebacks - either snappy or polite. "I'm not getting married because I don't want to get divorced" or "I like my life just the way it is, but thank you for your concern" or "When are you getting divorced?" or if they are single, regardless of gender, "Is that a proposal?" or (still regardless of their gender) "Let's spend time getting to know each other first, then we can talk about marriage." If you really want to shock them, "How about now? Let's you and I book a flight to Las Vegas and get married by Elvis." Now if it is someone who is truly happy in their marriage and you want to be polite, you can say, "I only want the kind of relationship you and your spouse have, but I am having a challenging time finding someone with whom I could have that kind of relationship." As a long-time happily married person, I will say that you have to be intentional when you decide it is the right time for you. I had fun with this one!
Love the come backs. My husband's daughter could use them. Man are people PUSHY!!! When I was in my 40's living in Colombia, TAXI drivers would bug the crap out of me about why I was still single and didn't have kids. GAH!
So many marriages are just miserable. What a mess that instead of fixing the economic and social drivers that fuel misery, our government simply pushes women to be subservient, abused, and desire nothing. And when women still have desires for anything - for equity, dignity, safety, economic independence - we are to blame.
This is a timely posting after reading that there are government people discussing incentives for women to have more babies - of course, without the support to keep those babies alive.
Women having economic freedom and individual legal protection is relatively new (in the scope of history). We’re living thru a huge shift in how people relate to one another and how power dynamics are arranged. It’s hard to see how monumental this all is from our day to day perspective. It’s telling that white male conservatives are working so hard to take away women’s freedoms and legal protections.
For a brief period in my 18-year marriage, I made slightly more money than my husband, and he loved it! Toward the end of both of our careers, we made pretty close to the same amount of money. However, I once had a boss who was jealous that I had more vacation time than she did. It was because I’d come from a different position within the company when I joined her team and I had been grandfathered in to an old vacation plan.
I have to choose the next book for my old men's book club (75 to 84 years old), all vey liberal, mostly somewhat smug about their successes, married or widowed (me 57 years married). Looking for a book on women's perspective of today - maybe about how all our dreams in 1968 about changing society crashed and ended up with Fake blond Donnie, Kristi Noem, Pam Bondi, JD Vance.
Of Course, This American Ex Wife. But if you want a good long tome - The Feminine Mystique. And you should throw Ibram X. Kendi's How to Be an Anti-Racist in there, as it's intersectional.
This Is How Your Marriage Ends: a Hopeful Approach to Saving Relationships. Fray, Matthew. This is actually from the young man's point of view, so it might be an interesting read for your group. I heard him on a podcast and then read the book.
This is fiction, but the author was 70 when it was published. Lessons in Chemistry: A Novel Hardcover by Bonnie Garmus. It was made into a very good TV series but the book was so much better. Sadly, many of the issues the author presents are still problems for women now.
What a great prompt for asking myself hard questions. I'm 81, and I've been in co-habiting relationships six times (4 legal marriages; two live-ins. One marriage was 4 months long; one live-in, 15 years. No correlation between legal/not legal in terms of the nature of the relationships or their longevity).
In the shower, after reading your essay, I asked myself why I always co-habit (current marriage: 26 years).
It was never financial. I've always worked. Always. Even when some of the men (2) out-earned/inherited-money me, I was on my own financially--with a child in the middle years. With some of their children prior to that.
Ok: dull intro to major point:
I married/co-habited my entire adult life for one reason only: Protection. (Bio father killed in war; stepfather work & emo absent; no brothers). I wanted to be "out there" in the world, working, running my own life, and the only way I could do that was to have the ostensible shield of a "husband."
She eats glass/she's selfish/she's not a good mom/she doesn't know how to treat a man/she's too impulsive.... choose your favorite evil-pr or make up your own.
Bottom-line: It worked for me-- even the super-brief one to a sociopath inadvertently forced me to make some very positive life-changing decisions.
The killer for us all uses the same weapon over and over: "You aren't/weren't a good woman."
Thanks to you, Lyz, this morning--in my ninth decade--I can say, "Maybe not. But I'm a happy one."
Well, the fact that you are 81 - I don't think you have to rationalize things. If I were born when you were, I think they would have burned me at the stake. I see how my grandmother had to live and times were different. Good on you for enacting your "Liz Taylor" vibes, though, and moving on from relationships that didn't work for you. I think your age and wisdom are a good lesson for women your age who think there is no life without a man, but also for the younger generations who need a good kick in the pants.
Yup. I divorced after only 4 years of marriage when I was 29. I did the cheating, yes. But after I had implored him to go to therapy ("I don't need therapy - it's your family that's screwed up!"), after I implored him to communicate with me. After I didn't know what else to do. (And, it's not like I was looking for it...it was a male friend who SHOWED UP...) Then, I was single for 22 years. And in that time, men told me that I was "intelligent," "funny," and "any guy would be lucky to have you." But these same men wouldn't DATE me. I was called "intense," "loud," "intimidating," and told, "You don't NEED anyone." And they're right. I don't NEED anyone. This toxic masculinity needs to read Lyz's newsletters, The Feminine Mystique, take classes on Women's Studies, and in Anti-Racism, because they are living in a TOTALY DIFFERENT world. They do not SEE us. They see what they are told they're supposed to see. If they saw us as equals, I would not be intense, loud, or intimidating. I'd be one of the "guys" who can hang with them just like their other penis-wielding friends. But isn't that interesting, that the "women friends" who can hang, are not dating material? (or only fantasy sex material when all the guys got together to talk about who they'd most like to f***). I am now married (in spirit, not in government) to my soul mate who is a creative, and who gets it, because unfortunately he was married to a woman who thought she was a feminist, but like Clarence Thomas, decided just to switch roles. He raised his children while she worked. He supported her through her JD. And he was fine with her making more money. But then she was resentful that he didn't make more than she did. WTF? Anyway. We all need therapy, and sisters, we have to keep fighting this fight and doing our thing. Maybe one day they'll get their heads out of their asses.
I read this and thought about how the same dynamic is often carried over into the workforce. I read the first half of this quote: “ The amount of ego-stroking and making myself smaller I’ve had to do so…” my white male (self proclaimed liberal!) boss doesn't resent me…There’s really no where to rest except in our own homes where we are finally able keep everyone out.
Which is why women are OPTING out of marriage, and creating their own tables, rather than trying to get a seat at the boys' table.
oof, yes, definitely doing a lot of that with my traditional values male boss.
WOW - once again you have reduced me to contemplation and I need to . . . help create the revolution. I have been in the work force since 1975 and I managed to have two wonderful children who have modeled my behaviors of entrepreneurship and love (not their father's) and I am starting over after divorce in Feb 1, 2024 from a marriage of 52 years. I add all this because I was fooled and hid under the bushel letting others think I WAS (as he said many times in front of his associates) an "affectionate footnote to his career". The third time he said it (I was running a statewide business program) on the way home I told him never to say that again. That was about the time his affairs and day trading started. I know I sound bitter, but I'm working hard to rebuild financially and emotionally.
This American Ex-Wife was the starting point to rebuild and today's post really resonates with me because I am learning in this last year that the people in my career-sphere see ME as the "Yoda" of small business assistance. In the last year, I've been called Yoda, GOAT, national treasure and the plant whisperer. I am embarrassed to say how I deferred to him, did all the household work, did all the child rearing work because he made 3 times what I did! But there in lies the problem - he never shared his wealth that could have afforded us cleaning service, heck at the amount he made when the kids were babes, we could have afforded a nanny -- but that is all gone - he blew it. So, he blew having a marriage, too!
As always, thank you Lyz for being such a gifted writer in this life mission of women for partnership! I realized about 6 months ago that partnership was what I never had. I had a selfish man child!
Linda, thanks for sharing a little bit of your story. I'm sorry that you had to be in that toxic a marriage for so long. I'm a fan of marriage and in a 43 year one myself, but I'm not a fan of abuse, and it sounds like you had a husband who didn't value you.
exactly - a a strong belief in the “bonds of marriage” and thinking setting a good role model would make a difference - it actually did as my kids are great and he was not active in their lives and the both moved out at college not to come back.
In the early 1970s, my mom did a Master's degree and studied 50 couples married 50 years or longer. 93 said they'd marry the same person again (in other words, 7 would not have). Some were second marriages! She embraced that "bonds of marriage" notion - and no doubt passed along behaviors consistent with traditional gender roles. But all of her kids, male and female, understood that being of service was better than being waited on. Good for you for setting such a strong example for your kids, and for having the courage to move on.
Linda, I just wanted to say I am cheering you on!!
Thank you!
So am I!!
Thank you!
Hugs and best of luck to you! You are doing what needs to be done and I know the Universe will reward you.
I read a bon mot on the internet just yesterday: a man who marries down gets a stay at home wife and mother, but a woman who marries down gets a stay at home gamer.
That red-pilled lawyer wouldn't've turned out that way, but honestly what a dope.
We (as a society) gotta figure out how to build men who aren't so fragile and unstable. This is ruining society.
100%. I'm Gen X so older than people currently looking for their first marriage but all the way through my dating life, from "he's got to be out there somewhere" idealism through "you still have time!" encouragement and "well, maybe you're too intimidating" up to "not this again" and lasting spinsterhood, my primary question was and remains: *where are the good men??!!* You want me so much to get married and procreate, show me where to find men who have stable jobs, some education, and perspectives not stuck in the 1500s. Most men I met wanted *me* to support *them*. Several even went so far as to say that since men had supported women for centuries, it was their turn to have someone pay their way. And there were a few decades in there when I actively wanted to be a SAHM! You'd think men would have been into that! nope. At least I had the good sense not have have kids with any of them. Phew.
Yeah so anyway, I'm single and not looking.
Allllll of this ✅✅✅✅✅
Yes, we do. I raised a son and daughter to be self-sufficient (in the 80s-90s) and they both have made great spouses (their spouses tell me). One is Gen X and one is Millennial. They each have a son and each wanted another but after miscarriages both stopped trying.
I'll be honest, it wasn't easy. I was mocked for having both kids learn to cook, do laundry by 10. Clean the entire house by 13 (at 14 they were paid) and when disparaging remarks were made about others, they were corrected and sometimes made to apologize. To see them both raising conscious citizens is wonderful.
When I say it wasn't easy, churches, acquaintances, schools and in-laws did not support me - it was suggested I stay home a raise my children which is CODE for do all the work.
I wasn't easy . . . Be strong, carry on, and I am now enjoying the love and compassion of my kids and their families.
My 5 year old daughter doesnt want kids. She asked me why people get married. idk how to answer that - financial incentives? I mean that really was why my partner and i got married - both in our second college degree process and financially it made sense to combine insurances. But...beyond that...
I keep thinking of that faux magazine that hard right anti birth control fascist Peter Theil is behind having the Ballerina farm lady on the cover- to convince women birth control is rat poison.
The system isn't broken 😔
About 10 years ago, my daughter met a guy at a bar where people play board games. He invited her out to another bar to play Scrabble. She replied, "sure, so long as you don't mind losing." They went on the date, he lost and there were no future dates. She's very pregnant and happily married to a really great guy now - who doesn't validate himself by the money he makes.
MIC DROP!!! I love that she kicked his a** in scrabble! Yes! My kind of woman!!! My mother often kicks my father's butt...and he is a verbose dictionary reader with two degrees, and rather a renaissance man. She was his secretary. She does the NYT crossword in pen. ;)
LOL. Yeah, my daughter is really smart. She thought that little incident was funny. Like your dad, I'm degree and book smart and my wife kicks my ass at Scrabble, too.
My father always told me "A person's [private] life is their own business." Furthermore, whether other people like it or not, whether you get married or not, whether you are in relationship or not, when you decide to get close to someone or not is your own business. Let me put it another way: When my wife and I met, I was the full-time music director/organist of her church. A couple choir members knew I had been recently stood up on a blind date. Then they met someone at a social gathering, and found out that she was "single and looking." They told her about me. They got consent to give me her information. We had our first date in May of one year, were engaged 6 months later, and the following year we got married in September - we celebrate 25 years this year. At no time did anyone push us into marriage (we were in our early 30's and had established careers) - that was our own private decision. Bottom line: If someone tries to nose their way into your business, come up with some comebacks - either snappy or polite. "I'm not getting married because I don't want to get divorced" or "I like my life just the way it is, but thank you for your concern" or "When are you getting divorced?" or if they are single, regardless of gender, "Is that a proposal?" or (still regardless of their gender) "Let's spend time getting to know each other first, then we can talk about marriage." If you really want to shock them, "How about now? Let's you and I book a flight to Las Vegas and get married by Elvis." Now if it is someone who is truly happy in their marriage and you want to be polite, you can say, "I only want the kind of relationship you and your spouse have, but I am having a challenging time finding someone with whom I could have that kind of relationship." As a long-time happily married person, I will say that you have to be intentional when you decide it is the right time for you. I had fun with this one!
What?
Love the come backs. My husband's daughter could use them. Man are people PUSHY!!! When I was in my 40's living in Colombia, TAXI drivers would bug the crap out of me about why I was still single and didn't have kids. GAH!
So many marriages are just miserable. What a mess that instead of fixing the economic and social drivers that fuel misery, our government simply pushes women to be subservient, abused, and desire nothing. And when women still have desires for anything - for equity, dignity, safety, economic independence - we are to blame.
so freaking well said!
This is a timely posting after reading that there are government people discussing incentives for women to have more babies - of course, without the support to keep those babies alive.
After having two babies I saw how little help I got from my husband and I had my tubes tied.
Women having economic freedom and individual legal protection is relatively new (in the scope of history). We’re living thru a huge shift in how people relate to one another and how power dynamics are arranged. It’s hard to see how monumental this all is from our day to day perspective. It’s telling that white male conservatives are working so hard to take away women’s freedoms and legal protections.
For a brief period in my 18-year marriage, I made slightly more money than my husband, and he loved it! Toward the end of both of our careers, we made pretty close to the same amount of money. However, I once had a boss who was jealous that I had more vacation time than she did. It was because I’d come from a different position within the company when I joined her team and I had been grandfathered in to an old vacation plan.
I have to choose the next book for my old men's book club (75 to 84 years old), all vey liberal, mostly somewhat smug about their successes, married or widowed (me 57 years married). Looking for a book on women's perspective of today - maybe about how all our dreams in 1968 about changing society crashed and ended up with Fake blond Donnie, Kristi Noem, Pam Bondi, JD Vance.
Any suggestions?
This American Ex Wife
Of Course, This American Ex Wife. But if you want a good long tome - The Feminine Mystique. And you should throw Ibram X. Kendi's How to Be an Anti-Racist in there, as it's intersectional.
This Is How Your Marriage Ends: a Hopeful Approach to Saving Relationships. Fray, Matthew. This is actually from the young man's point of view, so it might be an interesting read for your group. I heard him on a podcast and then read the book.
This is fiction, but the author was 70 when it was published. Lessons in Chemistry: A Novel Hardcover by Bonnie Garmus. It was made into a very good TV series but the book was so much better. Sadly, many of the issues the author presents are still problems for women now.
I have lots of fiction books for women of a certain age starting over on my list here: https://toledo.bibliocommons.com/v2/list/display/2422617999/2507489319
What a great prompt for asking myself hard questions. I'm 81, and I've been in co-habiting relationships six times (4 legal marriages; two live-ins. One marriage was 4 months long; one live-in, 15 years. No correlation between legal/not legal in terms of the nature of the relationships or their longevity).
In the shower, after reading your essay, I asked myself why I always co-habit (current marriage: 26 years).
It was never financial. I've always worked. Always. Even when some of the men (2) out-earned/inherited-money me, I was on my own financially--with a child in the middle years. With some of their children prior to that.
Ok: dull intro to major point:
I married/co-habited my entire adult life for one reason only: Protection. (Bio father killed in war; stepfather work & emo absent; no brothers). I wanted to be "out there" in the world, working, running my own life, and the only way I could do that was to have the ostensible shield of a "husband."
She eats glass/she's selfish/she's not a good mom/she doesn't know how to treat a man/she's too impulsive.... choose your favorite evil-pr or make up your own.
Bottom-line: It worked for me-- even the super-brief one to a sociopath inadvertently forced me to make some very positive life-changing decisions.
The killer for us all uses the same weapon over and over: "You aren't/weren't a good woman."
Thanks to you, Lyz, this morning--in my ninth decade--I can say, "Maybe not. But I'm a happy one."
Well, the fact that you are 81 - I don't think you have to rationalize things. If I were born when you were, I think they would have burned me at the stake. I see how my grandmother had to live and times were different. Good on you for enacting your "Liz Taylor" vibes, though, and moving on from relationships that didn't work for you. I think your age and wisdom are a good lesson for women your age who think there is no life without a man, but also for the younger generations who need a good kick in the pants.
Yup. I divorced after only 4 years of marriage when I was 29. I did the cheating, yes. But after I had implored him to go to therapy ("I don't need therapy - it's your family that's screwed up!"), after I implored him to communicate with me. After I didn't know what else to do. (And, it's not like I was looking for it...it was a male friend who SHOWED UP...) Then, I was single for 22 years. And in that time, men told me that I was "intelligent," "funny," and "any guy would be lucky to have you." But these same men wouldn't DATE me. I was called "intense," "loud," "intimidating," and told, "You don't NEED anyone." And they're right. I don't NEED anyone. This toxic masculinity needs to read Lyz's newsletters, The Feminine Mystique, take classes on Women's Studies, and in Anti-Racism, because they are living in a TOTALY DIFFERENT world. They do not SEE us. They see what they are told they're supposed to see. If they saw us as equals, I would not be intense, loud, or intimidating. I'd be one of the "guys" who can hang with them just like their other penis-wielding friends. But isn't that interesting, that the "women friends" who can hang, are not dating material? (or only fantasy sex material when all the guys got together to talk about who they'd most like to f***). I am now married (in spirit, not in government) to my soul mate who is a creative, and who gets it, because unfortunately he was married to a woman who thought she was a feminist, but like Clarence Thomas, decided just to switch roles. He raised his children while she worked. He supported her through her JD. And he was fine with her making more money. But then she was resentful that he didn't make more than she did. WTF? Anyway. We all need therapy, and sisters, we have to keep fighting this fight and doing our thing. Maybe one day they'll get their heads out of their asses.