A timely subject, as the conversation on the local radio station this morning (Z102.9, if you're local to Lyz) was regarding whether a parent should warn their college student that they are planning to visit, or just "drop in" for a spot inspection. I had a visceral reaction to the question being asked--your college student is an adult, you should treat them like one, not a petulant child on whom you can spy just because you happen to pay the bills.
I'm sorry, what. And I can so easily imagine the same radio jocks complaining about "kids these days expect everything done for them as if they've never had to be on their own" and "what are kids so anxious about these days anyways" People are so cruel about kids.
The idea of needing to have children to prop up the economy seems like the worst possible reason to have kids.
"Dad, why was I born?"
"Well, my little Medicare sponge, the economy always needs to expand, see, and there weren't enough kids to support all us old folks when we go into retirement."
If an economy can't stand fewer children being born, then it probably isn't a very good economic system.
and the 14-year old who shot and killed four people yesterday and injured nine others had mental health problems. he'd repeatedly asked for help but wasn't given it. we are failing our kids with tragic results.
Who do the children belong to? Themselves. That "reconciliation" and "forgiveness" bullshit makes me furious. It's an abusive system that allows abusers to thrive.
This has been on my mind in so many ways lately, I'm stunned to find so many of my thoughts articulated here. I can't wait to read the NYer piece. I've often wondered if my very long but uneventful labor that resulted in a c'section and then a long period of recovery for me when I couldn't really immediately do the parenting things... if that was why I never felt the way some parents seem to feel - my own mother, for example, made me feel as though I am still at 40 an extra limb of hers that just happens to talk sometimes. I have from the moment of holding my daughter been overwhelmed with the mystery of her, who she is, who she will be, how she will see the world. She just started Kindergarten and at pick up from afterschool programs this week, has taken to saying "I need space" and going to the bathroom on her own. I'm not entirely sure she CAN or Will properly do the things like, not licking foreign objects and fully washing her hands, but I fully respect her desire to do this on her own. I just, like, go to the door after she goes in so I can watch the washing part.... Anyway. I cant wait to read everything more fully, but had to just say I was stunned that this was a discussion topic, it really has been weighing on me a lot since kindergarten started - thanks as always for having this space, Lyz!
I had a respect and ownership conversation with my 13y yesterday. He was confused that his teacher demanded immediate respect while telling the class that they have to earn his. "Doesn't the respect thing flow both ways?" Yes, it should. I have always told him that he doesn't belong to me, he belongs to himself. I want to care for him and guide him as best as I can, but his life is his own, not mine. This seems like it should be such an obvious thing. Parenting is f*ing hard, why do these people endeavor to make it harder?
Love this. I've always told my kids they can ask me anything, especially why. Sometimes it might be after their shoes are on and we're in the car, but I will always tell them.
The best part??? We worked our assess off to ban reunification therapy here. We succeeded- it was signed into law last session!!!!! It’s not a total ban, but it’s a severe limitation. It should have been banned in this particular instance, according to the law as it stands. This judge broke the law and there is no recourse to hold him accountable. (I just came back from a rally for Rachel, the jailed mom. She is amazing and my heart is just broken for her).
This is one of so many reasons why I roll my eyes when (white!) people say nonsense about being safe in a blue state. Family court is WRETCHED and there is no good reason for it.
I have a friend in England who realized she was pregnant after an acrimonious breakup. I asked her about getting the ex to renounce his parental rights to protect the child (since he'd wanted her to terminate the pregnancy anyway). She was mystified. "What are parental rights?" she asked. In England there are no parental rights. There are parental responsibilities. If you meet them (say, if you're the non-custodial parent, by doing what you say you will, providing monetary support, and behaving in such a way that your child wants to see you), then you can have some parental privileges, like seeing them, visiting them, etc. If not, not. I'm sure it's more complicated than that. But it seems it might be a helpful shift in perspective for our legal system.
We dropped our 18 year old off at college last week. She's been very independent for years, to be honest, so I was surprised that she called casually asking for advice on which excess class to drop. There really isn't any greater hope for our kids than they can find happiness in a long, healthy life. Our second greatest hope is that they choose to keep us, parents, an active and helpful part of that happy life when they become adults.
As for abusive parents, my partner fled an abusive father when they were in high school. They were then admitted early to NYU without parental permission, paid for it with Army ROTC and actually had to chill for a year working in NYC because they were too young to be legally commissioned as an Army officer on NYU graduation. They did not reach out to their abusive father for a partial reconciliation for nearly thirty years, and then only because of our daughter. After lengthy debate, we decided we wanted to our daughter to know she had a grandfather who was nearing the end of his life and to meet him. He's gone now, but the victim's pain endures long past his passing. The situation in Colorado is an abomination. The right call is that the father is a child abuser and thus has surrendered many rights including to have any authority over his children. Like my partner, they may choose as adults to reach out to their abusive father. Or not.
I remember when I was in the hospital with my first. I was in all the uncertainty and gathering information and wanting to do my best as a new mom. The lactation consultant came in, and I said sure, I'd like some advice. She proceeded to tell me to wake up my newborn (eyeroll), and then when she didn't immediately latch, to use a "rapid arm movement, or RAM" to move her head to my breast. I should have told her to beat it right then and there, but I knew I would never RAM any infant head anywhere. I'd been stunned, the day before, in the delivery room, of how palpably here and human even this 30 minute old child was. They are simply pre-verbal people. And always, always, always their own. Parents who don't get that are cruising for a very lonely old age.
A judge here in Montana recently made a similarly incoherent order. It ended up getting a reversal from our Supreme Court, a rebuke, and the judge ended up resigning in disgrace.
That’s amazing. Appeals here are infuriating and pricey and very rarely are decisions reversed. Almost never. Takes years to wind through the system and by then the kids…they can’t recover
Much of former Judge Christopher's district is a Native reservation, and Elmo, where the mom lives, is the cultural center of the Kootenai nation. A Montana reader, and our Supreme Court, would be acutely aware of this, even if no one is saying anything out loud.
It looks like it took our Supreme Court a little more than 3 months to fix this.
We've been very fortunate in our Supreme Court. Our current chief justice is retiring though and in the upcoming election we have the option of going the wrong way -- as we are in so many other ways -- on that.
My ex and I were court ordered to attend a “high conflict co-parenting class”—our conflicts all stem from his desire and attempts to control both me and children. He tried to take custody from me over screentime and processed food. I have had to get court orders to get my children neuropsych testing for autism and adhd because he opposed it, I have had to get court orders for him to use my trans child’s chosen name and pronouns. It’s funny because he accuses me of “influencing” them to be trans because I am, when he is the one trying to force them to be something else. My children repeatedly tell providers they don’t like their dad because he doesn’t respect their identity etc and these adults, who are supposed to have their best interest in mind, tell them that it’s not good to dislike your parent, or that they don’t really mean it. The court will not award me custody unless something bad happens. This class kept telling me I was harming my children by not having a good relationship with their father and I wanted to ask what about the harm to me or to them by trying to pretend this is all ok? This is a long and rambling way to say that the system is not actually set up with children’s best interests in mind.
I've always treated my children like they're their own people, from the time they could talk. And when I don't, they remind me, forcefully. My daughter revealed to me some shitty things my son had done to them in the first years after their dad and I split up that had really affected their mental health in a lasting way, and certainly their relationship to their brother. Having had a very abusive older brother I was super triggered and wanted to jump right in and do something, fix it, make him apologize, etc., etc. My daughter tried to get me to back off but I wasn't listening until she got right in my face and said, rightfully, "This didn't happen to you. You don't get to tell me how to deal with it. Back. Off."
So, I did. And, though it was painful and hard, she was absolutely right to call me out and I was proud of her for setting the boundary. Do I always like or even understand all the choices my children make? Absolutely not. But they're not my choices *to* make, and as long as they're not putting their lives in danger and are ready to bear the consequences, then it doesn't serve either of us for me to insert myself as if they are some kind of extension of me. My time with them in my life on a daily basis is so short in the grand scheme of their lives. My primary job is to prepare them to live without me. How is treating them like extensions of me going to accomplish that?
Question Before the House: Why should anyone, especially a child, be required to "reconcile" with a monster?
Or, really, with any parent they don't want to be reconciled with. How does that lead to anything but broken adults who believe they have no agency?
From the linked article, this looks like court ordered religious indoctrination. Inexcusable.
The judge in this case broke the law. We eliminated the use of reunification therapy last year. It’s ENRAGING
Mayhap judges should be required to pass a test to be re-certified.
Or jailed when they break the law 🤷🏼♀️
A timely subject, as the conversation on the local radio station this morning (Z102.9, if you're local to Lyz) was regarding whether a parent should warn their college student that they are planning to visit, or just "drop in" for a spot inspection. I had a visceral reaction to the question being asked--your college student is an adult, you should treat them like one, not a petulant child on whom you can spy just because you happen to pay the bills.
And kids who are estranged from parents have every right to be. The idea of courts imposing this kind of forced reinstatement is really horrifying.
I'm sorry, what. And I can so easily imagine the same radio jocks complaining about "kids these days expect everything done for them as if they've never had to be on their own" and "what are kids so anxious about these days anyways" People are so cruel about kids.
The idea of needing to have children to prop up the economy seems like the worst possible reason to have kids.
"Dad, why was I born?"
"Well, my little Medicare sponge, the economy always needs to expand, see, and there weren't enough kids to support all us old folks when we go into retirement."
If an economy can't stand fewer children being born, then it probably isn't a very good economic system.
and the 14-year old who shot and killed four people yesterday and injured nine others had mental health problems. he'd repeatedly asked for help but wasn't given it. we are failing our kids with tragic results.
Who do the children belong to? Themselves. That "reconciliation" and "forgiveness" bullshit makes me furious. It's an abusive system that allows abusers to thrive.
This has been on my mind in so many ways lately, I'm stunned to find so many of my thoughts articulated here. I can't wait to read the NYer piece. I've often wondered if my very long but uneventful labor that resulted in a c'section and then a long period of recovery for me when I couldn't really immediately do the parenting things... if that was why I never felt the way some parents seem to feel - my own mother, for example, made me feel as though I am still at 40 an extra limb of hers that just happens to talk sometimes. I have from the moment of holding my daughter been overwhelmed with the mystery of her, who she is, who she will be, how she will see the world. She just started Kindergarten and at pick up from afterschool programs this week, has taken to saying "I need space" and going to the bathroom on her own. I'm not entirely sure she CAN or Will properly do the things like, not licking foreign objects and fully washing her hands, but I fully respect her desire to do this on her own. I just, like, go to the door after she goes in so I can watch the washing part.... Anyway. I cant wait to read everything more fully, but had to just say I was stunned that this was a discussion topic, it really has been weighing on me a lot since kindergarten started - thanks as always for having this space, Lyz!
I had a respect and ownership conversation with my 13y yesterday. He was confused that his teacher demanded immediate respect while telling the class that they have to earn his. "Doesn't the respect thing flow both ways?" Yes, it should. I have always told him that he doesn't belong to me, he belongs to himself. I want to care for him and guide him as best as I can, but his life is his own, not mine. This seems like it should be such an obvious thing. Parenting is f*ing hard, why do these people endeavor to make it harder?
Love this. I've always told my kids they can ask me anything, especially why. Sometimes it might be after their shoes are on and we're in the car, but I will always tell them.
The best part??? We worked our assess off to ban reunification therapy here. We succeeded- it was signed into law last session!!!!! It’s not a total ban, but it’s a severe limitation. It should have been banned in this particular instance, according to the law as it stands. This judge broke the law and there is no recourse to hold him accountable. (I just came back from a rally for Rachel, the jailed mom. She is amazing and my heart is just broken for her).
This is one of so many reasons why I roll my eyes when (white!) people say nonsense about being safe in a blue state. Family court is WRETCHED and there is no good reason for it.
I have a friend in England who realized she was pregnant after an acrimonious breakup. I asked her about getting the ex to renounce his parental rights to protect the child (since he'd wanted her to terminate the pregnancy anyway). She was mystified. "What are parental rights?" she asked. In England there are no parental rights. There are parental responsibilities. If you meet them (say, if you're the non-custodial parent, by doing what you say you will, providing monetary support, and behaving in such a way that your child wants to see you), then you can have some parental privileges, like seeing them, visiting them, etc. If not, not. I'm sure it's more complicated than that. But it seems it might be a helpful shift in perspective for our legal system.
I like that!!!
THIS. The most significant thing a parent can do is EARN their children’s respect. The most harmful thing a parent can do is force it.
We dropped our 18 year old off at college last week. She's been very independent for years, to be honest, so I was surprised that she called casually asking for advice on which excess class to drop. There really isn't any greater hope for our kids than they can find happiness in a long, healthy life. Our second greatest hope is that they choose to keep us, parents, an active and helpful part of that happy life when they become adults.
As for abusive parents, my partner fled an abusive father when they were in high school. They were then admitted early to NYU without parental permission, paid for it with Army ROTC and actually had to chill for a year working in NYC because they were too young to be legally commissioned as an Army officer on NYU graduation. They did not reach out to their abusive father for a partial reconciliation for nearly thirty years, and then only because of our daughter. After lengthy debate, we decided we wanted to our daughter to know she had a grandfather who was nearing the end of his life and to meet him. He's gone now, but the victim's pain endures long past his passing. The situation in Colorado is an abomination. The right call is that the father is a child abuser and thus has surrendered many rights including to have any authority over his children. Like my partner, they may choose as adults to reach out to their abusive father. Or not.
I remember when I was in the hospital with my first. I was in all the uncertainty and gathering information and wanting to do my best as a new mom. The lactation consultant came in, and I said sure, I'd like some advice. She proceeded to tell me to wake up my newborn (eyeroll), and then when she didn't immediately latch, to use a "rapid arm movement, or RAM" to move her head to my breast. I should have told her to beat it right then and there, but I knew I would never RAM any infant head anywhere. I'd been stunned, the day before, in the delivery room, of how palpably here and human even this 30 minute old child was. They are simply pre-verbal people. And always, always, always their own. Parents who don't get that are cruising for a very lonely old age.
That Colorado case is unspeakably gross.
It’s frighteningly common.
A judge here in Montana recently made a similarly incoherent order. It ended up getting a reversal from our Supreme Court, a rebuke, and the judge ended up resigning in disgrace.
https://montanafreepress.org/2024/03/29/montana-district-court-judge-to-resign-amid-judicial-standards-complaint/
All too often, though, these things pas by under the general public's radar.
That’s amazing. Appeals here are infuriating and pricey and very rarely are decisions reversed. Almost never. Takes years to wind through the system and by then the kids…they can’t recover
Here's more detail on that Montana case.
https://dailymontanan.com/2024/01/03/montana-supreme-court-removes-lake-county-district-court-judge-from-child-custody-case/
Much of former Judge Christopher's district is a Native reservation, and Elmo, where the mom lives, is the cultural center of the Kootenai nation. A Montana reader, and our Supreme Court, would be acutely aware of this, even if no one is saying anything out loud.
It looks like it took our Supreme Court a little more than 3 months to fix this.
In Rachel’s case, we have made an appeal to the chief justice to step in, but she is only two months into the job and probably won’t.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScTknJXR7loiycLNTIEE--PiHFJw_1rER9Bc6YZY9EG5prepA/viewform?usp=send_form
Again, just amazing. We never get anything fixed that quickly here. Ever.
We've been very fortunate in our Supreme Court. Our current chief justice is retiring though and in the upcoming election we have the option of going the wrong way -- as we are in so many other ways -- on that.
(His opinion distinguishing Citizens United was a thing of beauty, and drew a swift and bitter-because-they-were-in-the-wrong rebuke from the US Supreme Court. https://www.hcn.org/issues/44-2/montana-court-defends-law-defying-citizens-united/ Oh well, all things pass.)
My ex and I were court ordered to attend a “high conflict co-parenting class”—our conflicts all stem from his desire and attempts to control both me and children. He tried to take custody from me over screentime and processed food. I have had to get court orders to get my children neuropsych testing for autism and adhd because he opposed it, I have had to get court orders for him to use my trans child’s chosen name and pronouns. It’s funny because he accuses me of “influencing” them to be trans because I am, when he is the one trying to force them to be something else. My children repeatedly tell providers they don’t like their dad because he doesn’t respect their identity etc and these adults, who are supposed to have their best interest in mind, tell them that it’s not good to dislike your parent, or that they don’t really mean it. The court will not award me custody unless something bad happens. This class kept telling me I was harming my children by not having a good relationship with their father and I wanted to ask what about the harm to me or to them by trying to pretend this is all ok? This is a long and rambling way to say that the system is not actually set up with children’s best interests in mind.
Relatedly, I’m currently reading this book: https://bookshop.org/p/books/trust-kids-stories-on-youth-autonomy-and-confronting-adult-supremacy-carla-bergman/18070254
I didn't even know this was a thing. I'm so grossed out.
Same!
I've always treated my children like they're their own people, from the time they could talk. And when I don't, they remind me, forcefully. My daughter revealed to me some shitty things my son had done to them in the first years after their dad and I split up that had really affected their mental health in a lasting way, and certainly their relationship to their brother. Having had a very abusive older brother I was super triggered and wanted to jump right in and do something, fix it, make him apologize, etc., etc. My daughter tried to get me to back off but I wasn't listening until she got right in my face and said, rightfully, "This didn't happen to you. You don't get to tell me how to deal with it. Back. Off."
So, I did. And, though it was painful and hard, she was absolutely right to call me out and I was proud of her for setting the boundary. Do I always like or even understand all the choices my children make? Absolutely not. But they're not my choices *to* make, and as long as they're not putting their lives in danger and are ready to bear the consequences, then it doesn't serve either of us for me to insert myself as if they are some kind of extension of me. My time with them in my life on a daily basis is so short in the grand scheme of their lives. My primary job is to prepare them to live without me. How is treating them like extensions of me going to accomplish that?