Manguso and I are of an age and she's absolutely right, we were sold a bill of goods about progressive heterosexual marriage and were totally unprepared, as a result, for how regressive our future husbands actually were, how much they still wanted trad wives but refused to admit it. The gaslighting and emotional abuse designed to break down the woman they proudly publicly swore they wanted when it all began in order to reduce her to the woman they craved is very, very real.
And the financial vindictiveness in divorce is real, too. My children's father gave up final, legal say on every important issue in our children's lives just so he could get out of paying child support for the length of time he would legally be required to pay alimony. Because child support is taxable income for him, not me, and alimony is taxable for me, not him. That is some dumb, petty shit that only a man resentful that his wife refused to be his mother would pull.
The amount of BS men get away with by being whiny and pouty boggles my mind. Don’t they realize that it kills respect and love when one partner is petty and whiny.
I’m sorry for your pain. Kudos to you and the many remarkable women who are working through their trauma with no help from the men who caused it. Peace.
Thanks, Greta. I want to say that it didn't sour me on men entirely, but it did sour me on legal marriage, for sure. And on the vast majority of men. Though it was a majority beforehand already. I just believed in my late twenties in exceptions to the rule being a more statistically significant reality than I do now.
ah, in our 20s we believed a lot of things that we now know aren't true. it's great that we mature and come to new understandings, painful though that often is. good for you, asha!
"My children's father gave up final, legal say on every important issue in our children's lives" H.s. And I'm sure your kids know it and act accordingly. Just wow.
The description of the slow destructive drip of subtle abuse is so important. It's taken me years and years to really feel justified in saying what happened was abuse- even after getting a protective order for a time. My goodness. Thank you for bringing this book to my attention. I am ordering it now.
"People love to say that marriage takes work. All over the world, domestic abuse victims are thinking, Wow, I guess this is the work that everyone’s talking about. When we don’t talk about what constitutes reasonable relationship work, on a granular level, we enable abuse."
Will definitely try to read this, but it may be too painful. I am 24 years out of an emotionally and physically abusive marriage to an academic who claimed he wanted me to be one too. I had to agree to drop claims against his future royalties in order to keep a beloved pet. Fortunately, I didn't miss much.
I had a very honest male friend in college who maintained that all educated men wanted a woman with a degree who didn't use it. I often wonder what his marriage is like, we aren't in touch.
Wow. Just googled that honest college friend and he runs an energy consulting firm that advises high value clients on petroleum and other natural resources. Seems he's gotten even worse. Glad I'm not his wife.
When I tell you my fingers started snapping themselves after reading this . . . "I think the average progressive Gen X hetero woman went into marriage expecting a utopian partnership, and the average “progressive” Gen X man went into marriage expecting a cool wife."
I keep coming back to this, why feminism failed us Gen Xers so hard. We grew up at the end of history, when racism and sexism had been solved, and didn't everyone agree? We learned about MLK in grade school! It must be right! Of course women could do everything men could do! And then we went out into the workplace and relationships. Sure we could be in the workplace and do these jobs, just with a ton of condescension and expectation of taking notes in every meeting heaped on top. Sure we could be moms who worked, just be sure to do all housework and parenting pretty much on your own. Ha ha ha that's just the way men are!
Unpacking the ways in which culture and society and these massively large forces bear down upon our individual lives is so difficult for young people to get. We look to what our parents went through, and the girls thought, I'm not doing what mom did, and the boys thought, I'll be just like dad. So unbelievably frustrating.
ABSOLUTELY true. I thought it was something wrong with ME when I realized that my worthless ex husband was gaslighting me and trying to turn me from the “independent woman of his dreams” to the “gravy train broken wifey”. For ten years I put up with having to compromise with a man who was petty, insecure, and not as smart as I am. I did it because I thought that was how it worked, but when I kicked him to the curb, I swore I would NEVER put myself in that position again.
I feel like Sarah sees through the gaslighting bullshit that we as women experience and absolutely gives no fucks in calling it out. I admire that ability! I usually don’t read books about marriages falling apart but I plan to read hers. Thanks for this empowering interview!
Whoa. This: “ Traditional marriage is a domestic abuse paradigm; it was designed that way. But some readers see John as a cartoon villain, and they see Jane as a cartoon idiot. Those readers simply don’t understand how easily a man can reduce a strong woman to an abuse victim simply by marrying her and engaging in some casual gaslighting.” Yeah. Mind blown.
"People love to say that marriage takes work. All over the world, domestic abuse victims are thinking, Wow, I guess this is the work that everyone’s talking about." This landed in my gut. I spent so much of my abusive relationship thinking "well, relationships take work."
I just ordered this to read on a plane trip next week! I'm looking forward to the Gen X perspective. The line about men expecting to get the 'cool girl' really sealed the deal.
I was widowed last year at the age of 54. My husband was one of the good ones and I miss him a lot, but even so I struggled a lot with the daily logistics of living with someone and the patriarchal tropes that we subconsciously replicated. I may eventually date but do not want to be married or live with anyone again.
This is a great summation of my marriage. "...like that guy on the plane with you, who probably likes the idea of dating a smart, ambitious woman and is then pouty when she doesn’t instantly transform into a meek little wife appliance.” My ex-husband loved my ambition and my plans for a career in publishing right up until it meant I wasn't focused on him. That I had other things and people in my life -- including our kids -- and it unleashed a tidal wave of venom from him that crushed me and beat me down for more than a decade.
If you find out about that pill, please let me know. The only agency we have in marriages like this is to leave (murder has unpleasant consequences). I have been full of rage for 24 years.
In all seriousness does anyone have a “women breaking” reading list? Fiction, memoir, reporting, all of it? I want to read it all before I get very far into a new relationship 😂
I just finished reading this book at your recommendation. I was stunned and devoured it in a couple days. So much of the abuse and gaslighting is just sadly common in marriage, including my own. Some partners demand change and get it and some leave for their sanity. Some fall in between. I think this book could easily speak to every woman’s experience in patriarchal marriage. It definitely does to mine.
Well, that's the next thing on my TBR pile...
Manguso and I are of an age and she's absolutely right, we were sold a bill of goods about progressive heterosexual marriage and were totally unprepared, as a result, for how regressive our future husbands actually were, how much they still wanted trad wives but refused to admit it. The gaslighting and emotional abuse designed to break down the woman they proudly publicly swore they wanted when it all began in order to reduce her to the woman they craved is very, very real.
And the financial vindictiveness in divorce is real, too. My children's father gave up final, legal say on every important issue in our children's lives just so he could get out of paying child support for the length of time he would legally be required to pay alimony. Because child support is taxable income for him, not me, and alimony is taxable for me, not him. That is some dumb, petty shit that only a man resentful that his wife refused to be his mother would pull.
The amount of BS men get away with by being whiny and pouty boggles my mind. Don’t they realize that it kills respect and love when one partner is petty and whiny.
I’m sorry for your pain. Kudos to you and the many remarkable women who are working through their trauma with no help from the men who caused it. Peace.
aargh. that's awful. i'm so sorry that you had to endure this. sending long distance hugs.
Thanks, Greta. I want to say that it didn't sour me on men entirely, but it did sour me on legal marriage, for sure. And on the vast majority of men. Though it was a majority beforehand already. I just believed in my late twenties in exceptions to the rule being a more statistically significant reality than I do now.
ah, in our 20s we believed a lot of things that we now know aren't true. it's great that we mature and come to new understandings, painful though that often is. good for you, asha!
"My children's father gave up final, legal say on every important issue in our children's lives" H.s. And I'm sure your kids know it and act accordingly. Just wow.
The description of the slow destructive drip of subtle abuse is so important. It's taken me years and years to really feel justified in saying what happened was abuse- even after getting a protective order for a time. My goodness. Thank you for bringing this book to my attention. I am ordering it now.
"People love to say that marriage takes work. All over the world, domestic abuse victims are thinking, Wow, I guess this is the work that everyone’s talking about. When we don’t talk about what constitutes reasonable relationship work, on a granular level, we enable abuse."
Yep. Yep, yep, yep, yep!
Will definitely try to read this, but it may be too painful. I am 24 years out of an emotionally and physically abusive marriage to an academic who claimed he wanted me to be one too. I had to agree to drop claims against his future royalties in order to keep a beloved pet. Fortunately, I didn't miss much.
I had a very honest male friend in college who maintained that all educated men wanted a woman with a degree who didn't use it. I often wonder what his marriage is like, we aren't in touch.
Wow. Just googled that honest college friend and he runs an energy consulting firm that advises high value clients on petroleum and other natural resources. Seems he's gotten even worse. Glad I'm not his wife.
When I tell you my fingers started snapping themselves after reading this . . . "I think the average progressive Gen X hetero woman went into marriage expecting a utopian partnership, and the average “progressive” Gen X man went into marriage expecting a cool wife."
I keep coming back to this, why feminism failed us Gen Xers so hard. We grew up at the end of history, when racism and sexism had been solved, and didn't everyone agree? We learned about MLK in grade school! It must be right! Of course women could do everything men could do! And then we went out into the workplace and relationships. Sure we could be in the workplace and do these jobs, just with a ton of condescension and expectation of taking notes in every meeting heaped on top. Sure we could be moms who worked, just be sure to do all housework and parenting pretty much on your own. Ha ha ha that's just the way men are!
Unpacking the ways in which culture and society and these massively large forces bear down upon our individual lives is so difficult for young people to get. We look to what our parents went through, and the girls thought, I'm not doing what mom did, and the boys thought, I'll be just like dad. So unbelievably frustrating.
same. The cool girl/wife expectation has collectively sucked up untold hours of mental space for Gen X.
*snapping* again
ABSOLUTELY true. I thought it was something wrong with ME when I realized that my worthless ex husband was gaslighting me and trying to turn me from the “independent woman of his dreams” to the “gravy train broken wifey”. For ten years I put up with having to compromise with a man who was petty, insecure, and not as smart as I am. I did it because I thought that was how it worked, but when I kicked him to the curb, I swore I would NEVER put myself in that position again.
I feel like Sarah sees through the gaslighting bullshit that we as women experience and absolutely gives no fucks in calling it out. I admire that ability! I usually don’t read books about marriages falling apart but I plan to read hers. Thanks for this empowering interview!
Whoa. This: “ Traditional marriage is a domestic abuse paradigm; it was designed that way. But some readers see John as a cartoon villain, and they see Jane as a cartoon idiot. Those readers simply don’t understand how easily a man can reduce a strong woman to an abuse victim simply by marrying her and engaging in some casual gaslighting.” Yeah. Mind blown.
God I cannot get to reading this fast enough.
Right? I stopped reading not even halfway through and ordered her book.
I did the same! And a couple of her other works.
"People love to say that marriage takes work. All over the world, domestic abuse victims are thinking, Wow, I guess this is the work that everyone’s talking about." This landed in my gut. I spent so much of my abusive relationship thinking "well, relationships take work."
I just ordered this to read on a plane trip next week! I'm looking forward to the Gen X perspective. The line about men expecting to get the 'cool girl' really sealed the deal.
I was widowed last year at the age of 54. My husband was one of the good ones and I miss him a lot, but even so I struggled a lot with the daily logistics of living with someone and the patriarchal tropes that we subconsciously replicated. I may eventually date but do not want to be married or live with anyone again.
This is a great summation of my marriage. "...like that guy on the plane with you, who probably likes the idea of dating a smart, ambitious woman and is then pouty when she doesn’t instantly transform into a meek little wife appliance.” My ex-husband loved my ambition and my plans for a career in publishing right up until it meant I wasn't focused on him. That I had other things and people in my life -- including our kids -- and it unleashed a tidal wave of venom from him that crushed me and beat me down for more than a decade.
Oooh, Sarah, let’s be friends!! I asked my GP yesterday if there was a pill for unfiltered rage. She laughed and said no.
If you find out about that pill, please let me know. The only agency we have in marriages like this is to leave (murder has unpleasant consequences). I have been full of rage for 24 years.
This is added to my ‘to read’ list. We need more books like this!
In all seriousness does anyone have a “women breaking” reading list? Fiction, memoir, reporting, all of it? I want to read it all before I get very far into a new relationship 😂
I just finished reading this book at your recommendation. I was stunned and devoured it in a couple days. So much of the abuse and gaslighting is just sadly common in marriage, including my own. Some partners demand change and get it and some leave for their sanity. Some fall in between. I think this book could easily speak to every woman’s experience in patriarchal marriage. It definitely does to mine.