I pre-ordered Garrett's book. It arrived last week and, I’ll confess, it’s still sitting in its box on my dining room table. Part of the why is that I’m working three jobs, raising two kids and managing a house alone. But the other part is that I know it will be confronting and I want the space and time to be confronted.
Which a very convenient way to avoid the actual confrontation, I’m realizing. Because there’s never sufficient time to confront your own complicity in oppressive systems unobstructed. What would that take? Well, Whiteness has been constructing and fortifying itself for several hundred years now…
So, I’m gonna open that box when I get home and get it started. All we can do is begin.
I listened to the audiobook over the course of the past week. I struggle with making time to read (or listen) to new books and I had reservations about reading The Right Kind of White that are similar to what you describe. Did I have the bandwidth for introspection? Do I really want to interrogate my shortcomings right now?
If it's any reassurance, the book did not feel confrontational to me in any way. I identified with so much of what Garrett shares in the book. The way he wrote it made me it easy to get introspective and gave me productive ways to think about how I can do better.
Knowing Garrett from the Flyover Politics Discord these past couple of years, admiring his work with Barnraisers, and appreciating the White Pages newsletter I assumed that the book would be the story of how Garrett figured it all out and how I could too. I think it kind of *is* that, but not in the prescriptive way that I selfishly hoped it might.
I'm glad you named the longing for something more prescriptive (I don't know if it's selfish to long for that or not-- of course we all want more direction on how to be better for one another), and while I'm excited for why I/we didn't go that direction in the book (for all the reasons why it would have been contradictory to the lessons I'm still mucking my way through), it's scary to not offer that at the end! Like, "oh no, if people are willing to read all the way to the end I should give them a single, clear, 'do this' answer!" Writing this out right now to you, I'm realizing that itself is a bit of an experience in trust and community too, like "oh, I say I trust readers to be introspective and generous about their own story now and trust that they'll take that in their own powerful direction..." and now I have to actually live into that trust! That's to say, you're the best, Beau and it's so great to get to be a part of a striving, supportive community with you.
this is good to know. currently doing a lot of buddhist introspection right now so this feels as though it's going to fit in nicely with the 'letting go' of all sorts of things, from attitudes to behaviour.
I was super lucky to get an advanced reader copy and participate in a Zoom session with Garrett, his editor, and a bunch of other readers.
I procrastinated the book for many of the same reasons as Asha - single mom of four lol 😂 so, I put the date on my calendar, and procrastinated until the day before the Zoom meeting! Hahahaha! I managed to read all but the last 40 pages before the meeting. It was definitely that good!! I was surprised at how much I resonated with his story and how insightful and introspective it was. It was honest and vulnerable, and just such a great and engaging story!
I was also under the impression that he would tell people how to be the right kind of White, and was super impressed with the fact that it didn’t do that, but instead, taught us to see things in such different ways. How to examine our own identities in a very important way.
It was really so much better than what I was expecting.
i just snagged this at our local library. their copy isn't in yet but i'm first on the list when it comes in. bet this sparks some very interesting conversations.
I am excited to read this book. I have put an immense amount of effort into evolving myself, but I don't really have that White community to check in with because folks just don't talk about Whiteness except to use whatever the latest buzz words are. What I do see are my friends who are people of color, Indigenous, Black - increasingly frustrated with White people, especially allies, for not recognizing so, so much.
"Currently, as far as bookstores and libraries are concerned, The Right Kind of White is classified as an “African American studies” book."
This is so telling!! Nothing more succinctly describing what it means to be the default. Seems to speak of a kind of fear or taboo or even blindness about examining Whiteness - we can study Women or African American culture or Queer history, but Whiteness needs no further inquiry as it is the baseline. All other identities are an Other layer atop the blank slate and that blank slate is hetero- male Whiteness.
I got to hear Garrett talk about the book, and the process, last night. It's worth going if he comes to your town.
I bought the book, and read about a third of it so far. It's been interesting to reflect on how we're the same and how we're different, how our journeys are the same and how they're different, and I'm very much looking forward to finishing this one.
It's by Jessie Daniels and it's very good! She looks at the role white women play in white supremacy. If you are familiar with the podcast 'Nice White Parents', it's like an expansion pack to it.
It's also very easy to read—data interspersed with examples as story, and connecting the dots from individual behaviour to systemic norms that make it way easy for white women to weaponise both their race and gender in the oppression of non-white people, but especially Black folks.
Been sitting with my thoughts on this delightful interview a little while now and one thing that really resonates with me is the idea of opting out of competition with our neighbors. Not constantly comparing yourself to other (lesser) white folks who haven't figured it out yet. I think this is really pervasive, not just in our liberal, progressive politics on race but also in parenting and education and whether we recycle and if we eat free-range meat.
I remember my mother constantly yelling over her shoulder at us kids in the backseat - "This isn't a competition. There won't be any prizes." And that was true about who had been more wronged during the Incident At McDonald's, but it's also true about who has made more progress towards disentangling herself from our racist, patriarchal bullsh*t. It's good we're all moving in the same direction. No one's getting a trophy for getting there first and the "if you're not first, you're LAST" mentality is actively harming the cause.
Anyway, great work, looking forward to the book sitting in my "to read" pile for months and months until I devour it in a single sitting one day when the weather is rotten (self-awareness here, lol).
I read here about Garrett and his book with a kind of Bella Baxter-like level of naiveté. Although I grew up in the US, I returned to my central European roots in the early 90s and have observed US cultural development from afar for the past 35 years— with a growing sense of perplexity over the pervasive identity politics.
Abigayle, your description of “opting out of competition with our neighbors” really struck me. That is what confuses me most about much discourse in the US: the notion that refusing to compete means one is actively harming the cause.
And all of this conversation turns my thoughts inward, too: in the society in which I live, where am I still trying to compete? and why? How is fairness measured? What am I doing on my minimicro-level to help build a more just society? All the hard questions. Thank you Lyz and Garrett for pulling these questions to the fore in such a thoughtful and non-competitive way.
As is probably obvious from my anecdote, my sister and I have always been quite competitive and it manifests in everything from who is hosting Easter to how we express our political beliefs and which books we've read.
For the past few years I keep trying to consciously not compete with *her specifically*, but it's surprisingly difficult. For one thing, it's a habit, like muscle memory. Every tidbit of news compels an automatic one-up. Another challenge is that this is a one-sided endeavor, that my sister is not committed to (or possibly interested in). So I'm upsetting the dynamic by refusing to engage or de-escalating. It's awkward. And often I feel like I'm still in competition, I've just moved us to a new battlefield, one where I'm scoring benevolence points by not taking the bait, by taking the high road. Which is the same damn thing!
So yeah! It's tough! I would love to hear how other people are identifying and overcoming this compulsion that seems baked into our interpersonal dynamics. How do you go from Keeping up with the Jones to something more holistic?
Hi friends of Lyz! I just wanted to say thanks for welcoming me and the book into this community space. It's been such a joy to read your comments. If you all have any further questions I may be slow (I'm on spring break with my kids) but happy to give 'em a go.
Heartwarming to see author<>editor praise and respect flow in each direction. Garrett salutes his Simon & Schuster senior editor ("It was such a gift to work with Yahdon" Israel), who posts warm words at Threads about the first-time author:
"He does the work of reckoning with his own whiteness, and his do-gooder disposition, in order to build a bridge he previously burnt between himself and other white people he felt he was better than.
"When I first got my job [in 2021], I expressed wanting to work with a white writer who could write about whiteness in an affirming way without the politics of exclusion, a white writer who could confront his own guilt and shame without looking for absolution or praise. Though many people expressed their interest in seeing a book like this, they equally shared that they didn’t believe a book like this could exist. Now one does."
--> Fun fact from that thread: Garrett's book was "originally acquired under the name 'Race of Strangers.'"
That is a fun fact! I can absolutely understand how that title applies to the content of the book, it's just too vague about which race is the race of strangers so I think changing it was a good call.
This interview got me to order Garrett's book. I'm sure it will challenge some of my beliefs. A good thing.
That said, I object to mentioning Kendi and Wilkerson in the same sentence. Isabel Wilkerson is a brilliant historian, and her book Caste was intellectually serious. Kendi, I view as a huckster. I don't think of him as a serious thinker.
I am almost as excited to listen to the audiobook for the content as I am to finally put a voice to the name I’ve been reading in the Discord all this time!
Thanks so much for telling the uninformed about Garrett Bucks, Lyz! First book written by a straight White man I've ordered in ages. That sad and probably unjust fact alone is worth some introspection. 'We' over 'me'.
I pre-ordered Garrett's book. It arrived last week and, I’ll confess, it’s still sitting in its box on my dining room table. Part of the why is that I’m working three jobs, raising two kids and managing a house alone. But the other part is that I know it will be confronting and I want the space and time to be confronted.
Which a very convenient way to avoid the actual confrontation, I’m realizing. Because there’s never sufficient time to confront your own complicity in oppressive systems unobstructed. What would that take? Well, Whiteness has been constructing and fortifying itself for several hundred years now…
So, I’m gonna open that box when I get home and get it started. All we can do is begin.
I listened to the audiobook over the course of the past week. I struggle with making time to read (or listen) to new books and I had reservations about reading The Right Kind of White that are similar to what you describe. Did I have the bandwidth for introspection? Do I really want to interrogate my shortcomings right now?
If it's any reassurance, the book did not feel confrontational to me in any way. I identified with so much of what Garrett shares in the book. The way he wrote it made me it easy to get introspective and gave me productive ways to think about how I can do better.
Knowing Garrett from the Flyover Politics Discord these past couple of years, admiring his work with Barnraisers, and appreciating the White Pages newsletter I assumed that the book would be the story of how Garrett figured it all out and how I could too. I think it kind of *is* that, but not in the prescriptive way that I selfishly hoped it might.
I'm glad you named the longing for something more prescriptive (I don't know if it's selfish to long for that or not-- of course we all want more direction on how to be better for one another), and while I'm excited for why I/we didn't go that direction in the book (for all the reasons why it would have been contradictory to the lessons I'm still mucking my way through), it's scary to not offer that at the end! Like, "oh no, if people are willing to read all the way to the end I should give them a single, clear, 'do this' answer!" Writing this out right now to you, I'm realizing that itself is a bit of an experience in trust and community too, like "oh, I say I trust readers to be introspective and generous about their own story now and trust that they'll take that in their own powerful direction..." and now I have to actually live into that trust! That's to say, you're the best, Beau and it's so great to get to be a part of a striving, supportive community with you.
this is good to know. currently doing a lot of buddhist introspection right now so this feels as though it's going to fit in nicely with the 'letting go' of all sorts of things, from attitudes to behaviour.
Totally agree with Beau.
I was super lucky to get an advanced reader copy and participate in a Zoom session with Garrett, his editor, and a bunch of other readers.
I procrastinated the book for many of the same reasons as Asha - single mom of four lol 😂 so, I put the date on my calendar, and procrastinated until the day before the Zoom meeting! Hahahaha! I managed to read all but the last 40 pages before the meeting. It was definitely that good!! I was surprised at how much I resonated with his story and how insightful and introspective it was. It was honest and vulnerable, and just such a great and engaging story!
I was also under the impression that he would tell people how to be the right kind of White, and was super impressed with the fact that it didn’t do that, but instead, taught us to see things in such different ways. How to examine our own identities in a very important way.
It was really so much better than what I was expecting.
i just snagged this at our local library. their copy isn't in yet but i'm first on the list when it comes in. bet this sparks some very interesting conversations.
I am excited to read this book. I have put an immense amount of effort into evolving myself, but I don't really have that White community to check in with because folks just don't talk about Whiteness except to use whatever the latest buzz words are. What I do see are my friends who are people of color, Indigenous, Black - increasingly frustrated with White people, especially allies, for not recognizing so, so much.
Love this! Choosing we over me makes a bigger difference for sure. Looking forward to reading the book.
"Currently, as far as bookstores and libraries are concerned, The Right Kind of White is classified as an “African American studies” book."
This is so telling!! Nothing more succinctly describing what it means to be the default. Seems to speak of a kind of fear or taboo or even blindness about examining Whiteness - we can study Women or African American culture or Queer history, but Whiteness needs no further inquiry as it is the baseline. All other identities are an Other layer atop the blank slate and that blank slate is hetero- male Whiteness.
Yes! Yes! Yes! So telling.
Asked my library to buy it!
I got to hear Garrett talk about the book, and the process, last night. It's worth going if he comes to your town.
I bought the book, and read about a third of it so far. It's been interesting to reflect on how we're the same and how we're different, how our journeys are the same and how they're different, and I'm very much looking forward to finishing this one.
Sounds like the next book to read after I finish 'Nice White Ladies'!
not familiar with this. tell me more!
It's by Jessie Daniels and it's very good! She looks at the role white women play in white supremacy. If you are familiar with the podcast 'Nice White Parents', it's like an expansion pack to it.
It's also very easy to read—data interspersed with examples as story, and connecting the dots from individual behaviour to systemic norms that make it way easy for white women to weaponise both their race and gender in the oppression of non-white people, but especially Black folks.
thanks! i checked our library for a copy but they don't have it. i'm going to request that they purchase it. it sounds like yet another helpful read.
I put in a request for Garrett's book at my library! Filling out the anti-racism canon. :)
yep, we keep moving forward, educating ourselves and taking responsibility. applause, applause!
wow. can't wait to read this book. heading to the library site right this minute!!!
Been sitting with my thoughts on this delightful interview a little while now and one thing that really resonates with me is the idea of opting out of competition with our neighbors. Not constantly comparing yourself to other (lesser) white folks who haven't figured it out yet. I think this is really pervasive, not just in our liberal, progressive politics on race but also in parenting and education and whether we recycle and if we eat free-range meat.
I remember my mother constantly yelling over her shoulder at us kids in the backseat - "This isn't a competition. There won't be any prizes." And that was true about who had been more wronged during the Incident At McDonald's, but it's also true about who has made more progress towards disentangling herself from our racist, patriarchal bullsh*t. It's good we're all moving in the same direction. No one's getting a trophy for getting there first and the "if you're not first, you're LAST" mentality is actively harming the cause.
Anyway, great work, looking forward to the book sitting in my "to read" pile for months and months until I devour it in a single sitting one day when the weather is rotten (self-awareness here, lol).
I read here about Garrett and his book with a kind of Bella Baxter-like level of naiveté. Although I grew up in the US, I returned to my central European roots in the early 90s and have observed US cultural development from afar for the past 35 years— with a growing sense of perplexity over the pervasive identity politics.
Abigayle, your description of “opting out of competition with our neighbors” really struck me. That is what confuses me most about much discourse in the US: the notion that refusing to compete means one is actively harming the cause.
And all of this conversation turns my thoughts inward, too: in the society in which I live, where am I still trying to compete? and why? How is fairness measured? What am I doing on my minimicro-level to help build a more just society? All the hard questions. Thank you Lyz and Garrett for pulling these questions to the fore in such a thoughtful and non-competitive way.
As is probably obvious from my anecdote, my sister and I have always been quite competitive and it manifests in everything from who is hosting Easter to how we express our political beliefs and which books we've read.
For the past few years I keep trying to consciously not compete with *her specifically*, but it's surprisingly difficult. For one thing, it's a habit, like muscle memory. Every tidbit of news compels an automatic one-up. Another challenge is that this is a one-sided endeavor, that my sister is not committed to (or possibly interested in). So I'm upsetting the dynamic by refusing to engage or de-escalating. It's awkward. And often I feel like I'm still in competition, I've just moved us to a new battlefield, one where I'm scoring benevolence points by not taking the bait, by taking the high road. Which is the same damn thing!
So yeah! It's tough! I would love to hear how other people are identifying and overcoming this compulsion that seems baked into our interpersonal dynamics. How do you go from Keeping up with the Jones to something more holistic?
This is so well articulated, Abigayle. I couldn’t agree more.
Hi friends of Lyz! I just wanted to say thanks for welcoming me and the book into this community space. It's been such a joy to read your comments. If you all have any further questions I may be slow (I'm on spring break with my kids) but happy to give 'em a go.
Heartwarming to see author<>editor praise and respect flow in each direction. Garrett salutes his Simon & Schuster senior editor ("It was such a gift to work with Yahdon" Israel), who posts warm words at Threads about the first-time author:
"He does the work of reckoning with his own whiteness, and his do-gooder disposition, in order to build a bridge he previously burnt between himself and other white people he felt he was better than.
"When I first got my job [in 2021], I expressed wanting to work with a white writer who could write about whiteness in an affirming way without the politics of exclusion, a white writer who could confront his own guilt and shame without looking for absolution or praise. Though many people expressed their interest in seeing a book like this, they equally shared that they didn’t believe a book like this could exist. Now one does."
--> Fun fact from that thread: Garrett's book was "originally acquired under the name 'Race of Strangers.'"
That is a fun fact! I can absolutely understand how that title applies to the content of the book, it's just too vague about which race is the race of strangers so I think changing it was a good call.
This interview got me to order Garrett's book. I'm sure it will challenge some of my beliefs. A good thing.
That said, I object to mentioning Kendi and Wilkerson in the same sentence. Isabel Wilkerson is a brilliant historian, and her book Caste was intellectually serious. Kendi, I view as a huckster. I don't think of him as a serious thinker.
I am almost as excited to listen to the audiobook for the content as I am to finally put a voice to the name I’ve been reading in the Discord all this time!
Thanks so much for telling the uninformed about Garrett Bucks, Lyz! First book written by a straight White man I've ordered in ages. That sad and probably unjust fact alone is worth some introspection. 'We' over 'me'.
Beautiful interview. Thank you.
The kind of open-hearted, open-minded, self-inquiry described in this interview is powerful. Bravo.